Episode 19 - Matt Fendon - Workers' Compensation Technology

How do top law firms use technology and what do recent workers' compensation changes mean for Arizona's attorneys, employers, and IME physicians? Certified Workers' Compensation lawyer Matt Fendon explains these topics and more.

  • 00:10:11 - 05:10:11

    Jerrod Bailey 00:52

    Welcome, everyone to reimagining healthcare, a new dialogue with risk and patient safety leaders presented by med place. We're excited to bring you conversations with top risk and patient safety thought leaders from organizations around the country. So today, I'm joined by Matt Fenton, managing partner of Fenton Law Group, and that, hey, how you doing? Doing good. So I'm going to do a little intro here. You tell me if I get everything right. Okay. Since 2001, Attorney Matt Fenton has worked on worker's compensation and social security disability cases, he's earned membership to the State Bar of Arizona workers compensation section as well as the Arizona estates association of lawyers for injured workers. I believe you're the president of that as well now,


    Matt Fendon 01:40

    past president but yes, as President, okay.


    Jerrod Bailey 01:42

    Good to know. The workers, also the workers injury, Injury Law and advocacy group in the Arizona Association for Justice. He also enjoys giving back to the community by supporting organizations such as St. Vincent DePaul, also one of my favorites, and helping his peers by presenting seminars for the Arizona State Bar. I get all that right.


    Matt Fendon 02:03

    You did. I'm also board certified by the state bar in workers compensation. And just to lay that out, only 2% of the attorneys in the state are board certified in their areas. So


    Jerrod Bailey 02:17

    amazing. Yeah, yeah, definitely relevant. So, okay, so let's dig into a little bit of your of your past. Did you have you always done work comp? Or did you start somewhere else?


    Matt Fendon 02:30

    Well, so being a lawyer, and working in the legal fields is second career for me, I started in broadcasting and public relations and got out of it. Because I, it, I didn't like the competition and the low pay basically, it was you couldn't even support your family. And I had a family at that time and a young family and it was just not feasible. So then I shifted over to working as a paralegal for my dad, who's a longtime workers compensation attorney. And so that's how I got into the work comp field, worked as a paralegal for about five or six years and then went to law school, came back and went to work with him as an attorney.


    Jerrod Bailey 03:11

    Interesting. So a little bit of a family, family legacy here.


    Matt Fendon 03:15



    Jerrod Bailey 03:16

    That's good, too. Because I mean, it gives you generational context, and it lets you be able to understand how things have changed over time, which is helpful. So you know, Arizona pretty well, you've done your career out here and work comp, right?


    Matt Fendon 03:32

    Yes. So my entire legal career has been here and in Arizona. I'm an Arizona native, basically. So the only time I lived outside the state was for law school when I went to law school in Michigan, which is polar opposites of here, obviously. But yeah, I know, I know, Arizona, like the back of my hand. We got offices all over the state, Tucson, Phoenix, Prescott Valley and Flagstaff. So we're taking cases all over the state. Right.


    Jerrod Bailey 04:01

    And I'm also a native and thank God for Michigan, because if it wasn't for them in Chicago, we wouldn't have have our half of our population here in Arizona. That's for sure. Everyone fleeing the frozen tundra of the North. That's right. So all right, so you got a good handle it so our audiences is nationwide, but it's always interesting to zoom in on a particular market. What what's sort of unique about Arizona, and I mean, can you comment on like, what, what's unique here in the work


    Matt Fendon 04:32

    comp space? Well, what's unique about it is it's actually a very good system. It's a fair system, people would think because Arizona has is historically a pretty conservative state and pretty employer employer oriented. You would think that Arizona would have bad workers comp laws. It's that's really not the case at all. It's it's a you know, middle of the road system if you know, I actually push it more towards the employee, but definitely not below middle of the road. It's definitely an objective type system. The Constitution and the Arizona Constitution itself has language in it. Precluding, anybody from reducing workers comp benefits as granted by the Constitution, and that's pretty rare. So and it's been in there, I believe, since 1912, off the top of my head. So it's a, Arizona is a very business friendly state. But if you're hurt on the job, it's actually fairly friendly for an injured worker as well.


    Jerrod Bailey 05:37

    So what is that then create in terms of environment here, when you're looking at kind of both sides coming to the table to adjudicate claims and take care of the worker and all that stuff? Is it does that create any kind of interesting dynamics here, that might not exist somewhere else?


    Matt Fendon 05:55

    Yeah. So in our workers compensation section of the bar, the attorneys, it's, first of all, it's a very small section of the bar, there's probably only 40 to 50 attorneys that do what we do in the whole state, whether that's plaintiff or defense. And so everybody knows each other, everybody gets along very well, there's only a few outliers that you would call jerks, or whatnot, or worse names than that, but everybody pretty much gets along. And so that helps, that helps the system, in my opinion, because you can settle a lot of these cases. And then there's a lot of cases that don't get litigated, because you get a reasonable attorney on the other side, and they look at it and they say, well, employer, what you're doing is wrong, this claim should have been accepted, or this treatment should have been authorized. So they recommend that that does happen. So that's pretty unique about the system here.


    Jerrod Bailey 06:51

    So you tend to tend to find good players on both sides, pushing things to pushing the right things through. That's great. So I saw a video that you guys had on about getting claims to the ACA, the Industrial Commission of Arizona. And I, I've heard about some of this stuff before, what kinds of obstacles do these injured workers in Arizona tend to face when it comes to this, like starting the process moving through the process?


    Matt Fendon 07:23

    Yeah, so the thing I hear on a daily basis by multiple potential clients, is, I didn't know I had to file the claim, my employer never told me, I was relying on them. Those are the kinds of answers you get from potential clients. Well, unfortunately, they teach us in law school. One of the first things they teach us in law school is ignorance of the law is no defense. So what that essentially means is, even though you don't know injured worker that it's your burden of proof to file the worker's comp claim it is. And so what happens is, these poor employees are not educated, they get hurt on the job, they rely on their employer to file the claim, employer doesn't file the claim for them. And then maybe the claim never gets accepted, maybe the claim never gets processed. They basically get swept under a rug. So what we educate people to do and what we educate, and any potential clients we talk to is you got to contact the Industrial Commission right away when you're hurt on the job. Even though your employer may say, Hey, we're filing a claim, even though you may fill out a report of injury with your employer. If you don't file an injury report with the Industrial Commission, I tell people, it says if it never happened, because what's going to happen is the commission will then process the claim and formally kick it out to the employer's insurance company. And then that puts a timetable on them where they have 21 days to respond to the claim.


    Jerrod Bailey 08:53

    You know, and I know that there's a lot of companies that often haven't even faced a claim like this before, and they don't even know how to advise their, their employees. I know this too. I met a CEO and have been one in here. But it took me a while to even learn that this was even a thing. Right, and even how to how to, you know how to instruct an employee and what to do next. So I think there's a lot of ignorance in on both sides. And probably some education that could get done.


    Matt Fendon 09:21

    Absolutely. I mean, I try to speak to as many groups as possible to let them know, Hey, this is, this is how it is, and this is what you need to do. I mean, I even have it on the back of my business card, like when you get hurt on the job when the first things you need to need to do is file a claim with the Commission.


    Jerrod Bailey 09:36

    All right, I'm getting that you're that you're beating this drum and letting people know now there's something interesting happening with Arizona, right with OSHA, and this this talk of like, maybe taking away the state's sort of ability to manage what's happening here.


    Matt Fendon 09:57

    So first of all, the public needs to know that Arizona is one of 21 states with their own safety plan. So basically, Arizona has its own state sponsored division of OSHA. It's housed in the Industrial Commission building. And so it's Arizona is one of 21 states that have this, the rest of the states are basically governed by the federal OSHA. So what federal OSHA is saying is that Arizona, OSHA is not up to federal standards, essentially. So for example, in 2012, Arizona failed to implement residential construction fall protection requirements, which federal OSHA requires. So that's what they're essentially saying is, we're going to pull your pull you out of that one at 21. States, Arizona, and basically wipe out the Arizona state sponsored division of OSHA, and then the feds will just come in here and take it over, essentially. So that okay, yeah, so that's open to comment. So whenever you pass rules, or attempt to pass rules are subject to public comment. And so I think that's what we're waiting for the final decision to come down,


    Jerrod Bailey 11:18

    or is there a consensus of whether this is a good thing or a bad thing? Does it depend on who you are? what side you're on? Like? What's your, what's your assessment of it?


    Matt Fendon 11:29

    I mean, I know the you know, I know many people, the Industrial Commission, obviously, and the Industrial Commission thinks it's ridiculous, and they think they should keep that house within their building, and they think they're doing a good enough job. But I mean, I just want what's best for, for the workers. So if Arizona has Division of OSHA is not up to snuff, then let the feds take it over. I just want safe work environments, basically. Okay,


    Jerrod Bailey 12:01

    so you're just saying looking on whatever site it ends up on. You want a safe work environment? And if this is a better way than Soviet? Yep. Great. You were invited. Is this right? You were involved in a kind of a landmark PTSD case?


    Matt Fendon 12:20

    Yeah. France versus the industrial condition. That was Officer John France, who was a he'll a County Deputy working out of the Payson precinct. And basically, he got called out to a Wilczek, just outside of Payson, he and a partner. And so you know, they didn't expect any serious shenanigans on this call. And as they're going up to the, to the house, and they approached the porch, basically, the I don't want to call them a gentleman. He wasn't a gentleman, but the guy basically bum rushed them with a 12 gauge shotgun from outside his house, like burst through the door, and then cornered Sergeant France. And Sergeant France kept telling him there's complete there was video of everything, first of all, because the guy had put cameras all over his house. And so it was recorded. Yeah, crazy hard to watch. But essentially, Sergeant France had to take this this guy's life at point blank range, because he ended up raising the barrel of his 12 gauge at Sergeant Frances head, despite him telling them to drop it like 10 times and kill them at point blank range, then he LA County denies the claim says it's not compensable because it's not the way the statute reads is, you have to have an unusual unexpected or extraordinary incident that was a substantial contributing cause to your mental health condition. So he'll account he tries to argue that well, that's not unexpected. That's not unusual. That's not extraordinary, because he's a peace officer. He shouldn't be expecting to kill somebody a point blank range every day. And so the trial judge at the Commission bought that argument. And so I appealed it to the Court of Appeals. We want it the Court of Appeals, the Court of Appeals gave a very liberal opinion where all the counties and all the police departments freaked out because they thought it was going to open the floodgates for mental health claims. So then they appeal it up to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court still decides that Sergeant France has a compensable claim and meets the statutory requirements. But they watered down the decision from the court of appeals so it wouldn't have such an impact that the police departments were worried about.


    Jerrod Bailey 14:53

    Wow. What a journey.


    Matt Fendon 14:57

    Yeah, crazy journey like four year journey. And so but you know, we got Sergeant France the compensable claim, we changed the law, we clarified it. So if you're, you're a peace officer or a first responder, and you have an acute type situation like that, like a gun being stuck in your face, we have to take somebody's life. The claims basically should now be accepted no matter what, because of because of John Francis case. So it did some good for Arizona for


    Jerrod Bailey 15:29

    sure. And when when was this, when did this happen?


    Matt Fendon 15:33

    The injury or the incident happened in 2017. It was Father's Day of 2017. The Supreme Court decision came down last year and 2020.


    Jerrod Bailey 15:42

    Well, have you seen more of these types of cases in response to that, and


    Matt Fendon 15:47

    we're not seeing denied claims? Well, we have, we actually have one in the firm crazy enough that we ended up with this case, we have one in the firm, almost specific, same set of facts, where an officer had to take somebody's life at point blank range, and they denied it. But one of the one of my senior associate attorneys handling it, and she's already stuck the opinion of the France opinion under opposing counsels nose and said, What do you guys do? And like you need to get this claim accepted? So hopefully, they're going to change their mind on it. Wow.


    Jerrod Bailey 16:22

    So interesting. Well I my place as a big network of doctors around the country and nurses and stuff like that. Curious what if we started seeing claims like this come through what types of specialties we should be? Adding to the bench? Sounds like, potentially you're using psychologists in cases like this?


    Matt Fendon 16:45

    Yeah. psychologists, psychiatrists. There's even some psychologists that basically have tailored their practice towards first responders, which is awesome. Interesting. Yeah, I know, two of them, in fact, two different practices that are tailored just towards first responders.


    Jerrod Bailey 17:08

    Wow. Well, I'd love to meet him at some point. Absolutely.


    Matt Fendon 17:12

    I'll make the intro. Love it.


    Jerrod Bailey 17:14

    So you know, we're a technology company here in this in this environment where I think that there's not enough technology in general, right? I mean, you've got law firms that are slow to adopt technology, you've got hospitals and physicians groups that are slips on adopt, you got insurance companies that, frankly, are pretty, maybe the slowest to adopt technology. I'd love to kind of unpack that with you guys. Where does technology fit into this? into your world? Where does it fit into the work comp? World? I think I have some perspectives on this. But what do you think? Well,


    Matt Fendon 17:52

    it's funny that you bring that up, because we're, we're the only work comp firm, at least on the applicant side that I know of, that has really harnessed technology, and has reinvested firm profits into technology. In fact, I'll reach our vision statement, it's we're on a mission to help our clients navigate and maximize their benefits in the legal system by providing great communication, top notch technology, and special care. So what we what we do with that is, so first of all, I just, I'm in the process of investing in the top notch practice management software. And so, case management software, in essence, where we will almost fully automate the firm. And so that will help us assist our clients better. It's going to enhance communication, it will help us decide which cases to take, literally have grading scales on cases, for new cases, based on the criteria we'll be able to embed videos in automatic responses essentially, like when something changes on a case a status changes, and a video of me or one of the other attorneys will be embedded. And it'll automatically send an email out. So this is what's happened. This is what's going on this is what's next. So the case management software alone that we're using is just phenomenal. So we're really excited about that. And then just everything from I mean, obviously, this is pretty old stuff, but like internet based phones, things like that we can work from our phones anywhere in the world. You know, VPNs things like that. So yeah, I mean, I've invested very heavily in the technology and I will continue to do that.


    Jerrod Bailey 19:49

    I love it. You know, I I've done work. I've done 22 years in technology startups and tech across a bunch of different industries and healthcare in some way. He's really uses technology well, and in some cases, it just completely misses it. But you look at like the work comp industry and you look at like, what could happen, what could be available? I mean, workers comp, there's, there's a lot of process, right. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of volume moving through that system and a lot of different players and a lot of handoffs. And you know, when people talk about technology, like, oh, well yeah, I get it, I could get a PDF instead of faxing. And that's significant when you're talking about 1000s and 1000s of cases coming through. And somebody who's dealing with a real injury, and isn't an unknown place of not really understanding and kind of relying on everyone around them to kind of bring it through just increasing communication just showing them where they're at, in a process, just digitizing things that normally, you would have to wait to the getting the mail and right from the front door. I mean, there's these little things all add up, right, and it's death by 1000 cuts, if you're in the middle of the process, and that's just for the for the injured worker, you look at the attorneys and the doctors in the, in the claims adjusters that are involved. And it boggles my mind, sometimes when I look at what their what they've become complacent in dealing with, right, I mean, the manual processes, but inject a little bit of technology and in it can make a really, really big difference. If for no one else than for the for the worker themselves. What a huge difference. Huge difference.


    Yeah we're looking at things like AI and trying to figure out and I've seen some things, there's, there's, there's an AI company that will analyze cases for like med mal, and tell you which ones are you know, defensible, or should be, should be prosecuted. And, and there's AI that can take lots and lots of records and automatically collate them and put them together for all of the folks who have to deal with medical records through the process, right. And that's just on the AI side, I think there's all sorts of advantages to you know, different types of market, we're a marketplace out there, just trying to connect the right doctor to the right company at the right time. So they can get a an opinion, faster and educated opinion faster. And sometimes it makes all the difference when you're trying to figure out how to get your worker back to work.


    Matt Fendon 22:33

    Absolutely different than night and day. And again the efficiency that we're able to engage in with this technology, it basically allows so we're one of the largest work comp firms in the state. Just to put things in perspective, our biggest competitor has double the amount of attorneys that we have hope we can handle their volume, and probably more based on the fact that our technology is so upper tier, so your streamlined,


    Jerrod Bailey 23:05

    free get you get rid of a lot of that waste that wasted overhead, right now. That's great. Did COVID Throw you guys a wrench like it did everyone else?


    Matt Fendon 23:17

    I mean, it was a it was a short wrench. Because we focus so much on technology, we were able to kind of go with it pretty quickly. And our IT guys are great. And they you know, they got everybody up and running at home right away, even though typically the attorneys and the paralegals were the only ones working from home prior to COVID. They got everybody on staff, coordinated and set up and we really didn't miss a beat it was I'm very grateful for that. And that just COVID brought everything into perspective that, hey, we really need to have high technology for our businesses to continue plugging away and for our businesses to continue growing. I mean, that's crucial.


    Jerrod Bailey 24:01

    But sounds to me, at least in workers comp. And it's happened in other industries too. But COVID I think set a new standard for you know, hearings being done at home and being that things being done virtually right.


    Matt Fendon 24:14

    Yeah, it is so awesome. I, I always tell my colleagues, I don't ever want to go back to a courtroom. I haven't been in a courtroom since like, early March 2020. Like No kidding. Yeah, I have not been in a courtroom since then. It's all been Google meets. They do their hearings on the Google meets platforms. And it's fantastic because I can do them from anywhere. So I don't even need to worry about like I can take more vacations now because I can do my hearings from wherever I'm at. Obviously, I can work from home whenever I need to. It's just so awesome. And you, you realize how much time is wasted or was wasted driving to and from the Industrial Commission. And then you ended up shooting the ball with all the other attorneys while you're down there just wasting time between hearings?


    Jerrod Bailey 25:08

    I mean, we have a hearing cancel, right, and everybody goes home.


    Matt Fendon 25:12

    Yeah, I mean, there used to be, if you had, if you had a day where you had three or four hearings, you would just camp down there, and just stay there all day long, and be out of the office all day long, because it made no sense to go back and forth. We don't have to do that anymore. Now we can stay in our offices, and we don't have to, we don't have to pollute the air. And we don't have to lose that time driving back and forth. So it's been amazing. I hope it never changes, frankly.


    Jerrod Bailey 25:41

    Hey, Matt. So this something I think all of us have to worry about now that we have people working from home, but what what is the whole, like, everyone's not working from home thing due to workers comp claims? And like, where, what do I need to be thinking about as a, as an employer? That's got now you know, most of his people at home?


    Matt Fendon 26:01

    Yeah, so believe it or not it almost enlarges the scope that people can be heard on the job, because there's very little case law in Arizona, on at home injuries, but what case law case law we have from other states, and the limited case law we have here, essentially, your home is your is like your workplace. So if you have somebody that's working upstairs in their office, and they're going downstairs to go get a drink of water, or coffee in the kitchen, and they fall down the stairs, that's a compensable claim. I mean, that's an accepted claim. And so I mean, there's a, there was a case out of Utah, where a guy had to plow his front walkway, just so the mailman or the UPS guy could get to the mailbox or get to his porch. And he needed them the mailman or the, or the mail delivery person or UPS to get to his porch to deliver something. And while he's plowing his, his sidewalk, he gets hurt. And that was a compensable claim. So I mean, it's definitely expanded it. And so what we're what employers need to be aware of, is just because you have your injured workers at home, doesn't mean you're going to have less work comp claims, essentially.


    Jerrod Bailey 27:27

    Wow, just what just when I thought it was going to get easier, right?


    Matt Fendon 27:31

    Like, even tripping over the dog, for example, going to get a drink or something would be a compensable. Claim. So


    Jerrod Bailey 27:39

    good to know. All right, good. And this is a new world we're living in. And we're operating under different rules and don't realize it.


    Matt Fendon 27:46

    Absolutely. It's great.


    Jerrod Bailey 27:50

    So back to back to the technology thing. I always like to ask this, if you had a magic wand, what should people develop for the work comp industry? What's like, really broken or hard or frustrating? I mean, I would like


    Matt Fendon 28:05

    the so we've been doing the hearings on the Google meats platform, I would like them to upgrade to maybe like teams or blue jeans or some a better platform. I think that that could use some tender loving care. What else would be helpful in the work comp world? I mean, we're already doing depositions on Zoom and teams and blue jeans. So that's already going well. Telehealth was an option during COVID. So that that was happening to and it still happens on these cases where they get telehealth. She ends up


    Jerrod Bailey 28:44

    you end up ordering I Emmys through the through the or I Emmys get ordered through the course of a work comp claim. How efficient is that process? Is that is that a well oiled machine? Well,


    Matt Fendon 28:59

    I'm probably not the best guy to ask about that. Because I don't order a lot IMEs. I'm usually you know, attacking and I me Yeah, right. But so I don't know the answer to that. I suppose. A defense work comp defense lawyer would have a better answer for that. I don't know if they do it through a portal or?


    Jerrod Bailey 29:17

    Well, I imagine I mentioned where you have to your kind of first reactions how long it might take to get them done, right. Yeah, I've heard I've heard it often takes a lot longer than it. It should.


    Matt Fendon 29:30

    Yeah, it does take that's that's definitely an area where you could improve efficiency. You're looking at usually turnaround time, two to four weeks on an average IME. And then if it's a psychological or psychiatric IME, those things are like 30 pages long and those can take over a month to get back. So yeah, the turnaround on I Emmys would be you know, somewhere where you can improve efficiency, but then at the same time, say, well, a lot of these IME Is detriment detrimental detrimentally, excuse me affect my clients. So I'd rather they take longer before it affects their benefits because they can use the IME to cut off their compensation and madam. Yep, got it. Good question for a defense lawyer. Yeah,


    Jerrod Bailey 30:19

    we'll see if there's the right answer somewhere in the middle. Well, I tell you what this was this was interesting. anything on your mind? Any anything that you feel like you've kind of been using as talking points as you're out in the industry, sort of educating folks, anything you'd like to share here?


    Matt Fendon 30:35

    Yeah, I mean, just the most important things. When you get hurt on the job, employees, make sure you go to the doctor right away, we see that that's another problem is people wait to go to the doctor, they wait weeks, they wait months, and they really do themselves a disservice. They wait for the employers to direct them. And that doesn't always happen. And that may just be lack of education.


    On the employer side, like you were mentioned earlier, if it's a small shop, maybe they never had anybody heard on the job. So I just education on both sides, employers employees about getting people to the doctor right away is pretty crucial. And then make sure that you report things in writing to your employer, and employers make sure that you document things in writing. That's crucial as well. And then last but not least, like I mentioned, make sure you get those claims filed at the Industrial Commission, as soon as possible. If these things were done, like early medical treatment, early reporting, early reporting to the commission, I think it would make things better all the way around, whether it's employer or employee.


    Jerrod Bailey 31:43

    Great. Well, Matt, I appreciate you spending some time with me. I'll do a little bit of an outro here in a second. But how do people get a hold of you if they want to find you?


    Matt Fendon 31:53

    Yeah, so you can always find us on the web at WWW dot fending law.net That's F as in Frank, e n d o n le w.net. Our websites jam packed with information videos, you name it. You can also call us locally 602-562-9111 or 1-800-229-3880. We're statewide like I mentioned Phoenix, Tucson, Prescott Valley, Flagstaff, we take cases all over the state. So doesn't matter what corner of the state you're in. And we'll help


    Jerrod Bailey 32:29

    you. Fantastic. Well, I'll we'll make sure that we link to all this stuff and even some of these articles that I mentioned in the show notes. But it was good to good to meet you. I'm sure I'm going to see more of you here next couple of years. Absolutely. Great. Well, for everyone else, thank you for listening to reimagining healthcare, a new dialogue, in risk patient safety, subscribe and share if you find it valuable. And if you'd like to participate again, as a guest, just email us at speakers at med place.com. And make sure to follow Matt and connect with him on LinkedIn. We'll link all this stuff in the show notes. But Matt, has pleasure. Thanks for joining me. Thank you. All right. We'll talk soon. Cheers.

Attorney Matt Fendon joins Medplace to discuss the multifaceted Arizona Workers' Compensation industry. First, Fendon lists the key differences in Arizona workers' compensation compared to other states. He then explains the implications of Arizona's OSHA debate and what it means for physicians, law firms, and employers. Later, Fendon explores how law firms, like his own, use technology to keep up with competitors with more resources and staff.
Matt Fendon

Guest - Matt Fendon

Workers Compensation Attorney, Managing Member at Matt Fendon Law Group (MFLG)

Since 2001, Attorney Matt Fendon has worked on workers’ compensation and Social Security Disability cases. He has earned membership to the State Bar of Arizona Workers’ Compensation Section as well as the Arizona Association of Lawyers for Injured Workers (he is the current President of the Association) the Workers Injury Law & Advocacy Group, and the Arizona Association for Justice. He also enjoys giving back to the community by supporting organizations such as St. Vincent de Paul and helping his peers by presenting seminars for the Arizona State Bar.

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